[Jin]

I'am not concerned i'am nagual or not, it doesnt matter. what i know, is that I can transfer my energy to others and that nagualism teaches a way to ascension to higher plains of existence, theory and methods work and i've seen that.
I could do it alone, but why should i ? If others are capable of coming along with me, why not ?

I'am not Don Juan I'am from a different time and my mission here is not of his. I have other views, and even if CC wrote 11 books there many things he didn't write and didn't even know, u can see in other toltec books writen by other people. The thing is Dun Juan didn't give CC all he could (or maybe CC just didn't wan't others to see that) and in one of books DJ told that CC spirit takes only prisoners, it doesnt give freedom, so there is a lot to question. especiali considering the usage of art of stalking that all over the basic structure of his books

I'am using the theory and the methods from Toltecs and add other ways I have found and will find. There are many thing I still don't understand, so I'am sharing and gathering all the information i can find. though at some point it won't matter anymore (but that point isn't here jet

group is a way of combining energy (take group meditation for exaple) so it speeds up things a bit, the more u have the higher the energy - the higher vibrational frequensy - better access to other dimensions =)

btw take a look at that
Nova - The Elegant Universe - Part III - Welcome to the 11th Dimension.avi
as toltecs said 4 dimensions we see now + 7 others world (2 of them nicknamed by cristianity hell and haven) = 11
science have also found that, and they also think that's it's all matter of energy

[ensonar]

I agree with most of what you're saying here, and perhaps I misjudged your intentions. There are a lot of people concerned with acting like a nagual, and maybe I jumped too quickly at lumping you in with them.

If it's just a matter of finding others with similar interests, well then that's pretty much exactly what we're all doing on this message board. And if a group of people with similar interests begin working together, all the better.

I too am interested in the findings of quantum physics, because they seem to be heading in a similar direction to some of the things found in nagualism, taoism, and other such mystical traditions. The fact that science is actually starting to prove some of the more abstract possibilities of the nature of reality is absolutely fascinating to me.

[DrakeWan]

. Wanting to start a group is nothing but putting yourself in a place of importance.


Carlos spread this knowledge far and wide with his books. I am not saying that new configurations, or groups wouldn't be possible. Anything is possible. But I feel very confident that new configurations would not be put together by someone who goes around telling people about it on a message board. It would be by someone who SEES. And not someone who goes around telling people that they see on message boards... warriors don't go around boasting things. And also it wouldn't be someone who defends themselves on message boards either.

A true warrior-seer may not be easy to spot if they are purposely remaining hidden, but a sham-warrior can be spotted in a second, by the childish way they approach things.

That being said, I'm not trying to put you down Jin. I come off a bit harshly sometimes, but don't take it personally. We're all dumb-asses most of the time.

Many of us are not mature enough to stop playing pretend. I've seen it over and over on Nagualism based message boards and groups. Everyone wants to pretend they're a nagual

I see a lot of this with anyone and everyone on the internet... on the internet everyone is a leader.... the whole idea of the internet is everyone is a leader of what they view...

in a world of leaders nothing ever actually gets done because "the leaders" are too busy trying to lead everyone and have everyone follow them.

pretending that they have something to teach the rest of us

You would have to understand that most peoples intentions are positive... When they try to explain the nagual, they are only trying to help.... would it not be self importance to think what they have to say is pretending?
without self-importance everyones words are the same as everyone elses... because without self-importance you can see the nagual in everything everyone does or says..

or they want to start a "group"

Well, it is useless in all reality to initiate a group where people join at will, or by clever advertising... People have to understand what it implies....

We all should remember Don Juan saying the words he chooses are just chosen because they worked the best and that future seers would make their own words to describe it accurately to the new non-seers...

Carlos' books weren't the bible... Don Juan made it clear that concepts and descriptions would be updated, but not the over-all concept...

I agree with you, but I think you're observing this from a abberated view-point... no offense at all

Why not be humble and be concerned only with becoming a mature and focused warrior?

'mature' ? Don Juan and Don Genaro were anything but mature.. lol
neither were they overly humble...
they were impeccable. nothing more, nothing less.

Perhaps it is impeccability that lead people to wanting a person to form a group... maybe it isn't the person that is 'creating' the group that is being self-important, but yet the 'followers' making someone else important... like Carlos did with Don Juan...
sometimes people are more advanced for their own reasons... and others seek their guidance...
Carlos didn't become a nagual all on his own... he needed everyones assistance..
He needed people to think of him as the nagual yet think of him as a total fool, it kept them from becoming obsessed with him... (not everyone obviously) ... Carlos was the new Nagual.... the new teacher... the fool and the teacher.... it stopped people from looking up and worshipping their teacher.

Don Juan didn't "want" to start a group. Don Juan didn't pick people to be in his party. Intent chose and he acquiesced. As he said, he wasn't concerned with teaching anyone, his only concern was continuing his lineage. And as we know, that lineage stopped with Carlos, Florinda, Taisha, and Carol.

......Please see what your own statement portrays...

Don Juan wasn't important enough to want to start something... instead he let things happen as they were supposed to by following/listening to intent... Intent showed him people and he had to be sure that it was intent and not his self-importance choosing..
He wasn't concerned with teaching because teaching implies worldly things.. or worldly knowledge... what he had to 'express' or teach was not just a method of calculating Pi... it was REALITY.... You cannot really teach something that "is".... you can only unlearn what one has made concrete in their own mind... one can only fix anothers abberations... nothing less, nothing more.

In my opinion we are all now part of the new configuration.

Yes, we ALL are... meaning every human... thought spreads like wild-fire... whats in ones head transfers to everyone elses in the vicinity...

.....................

The thing is, we can't see warriors because only people that can see can actually tell if a person is a warrior or not..
and just because a person occasionally seems self-important doesn't mean they are, or that they are abberated..... Many times Don Juan and Genaro expressed their mastery over certain things.

I think we all need to focus on 'agreeing' ... or trying to find truth in the most abberated posts....

this is our world on here... we each individually own it...
granted we all may be a bit drunk with the idea we can post or BE whoever we want... we're all still generally good people.. not 'trying' to be dicks...
We're hardly being impeccable squabbling over mere words or ideas...
What I'm proposing here is that we help anyone and everyone no matter how stupid we may think it is... theres nothing really to lose.

[ensonar]

I agree with much of what you've said. However, there are a few things I'd like to clarify, and a few things i'd like to have you clarify, so we can better understand each other.

would it not be self importance to think what they have to say is pretending?

When I say this, it's because I feel that people sometimes read Carlos' books and begin to have childlike fantasies about being a nagual and leading a group of warriors. Perhaps, I am too quick to jump to this conclusion, because I have seen it many times on the Internet. And perhaps their intentions may still be positive, and perhaps it is all part of the process of growing and learning for many people to go through this phase. But at the same time, I'm not sure that I should refrain from mentioning it when I see it. Do you feel I'm approaching this in the wrong way? Do you think my assumptions are wrong?

'mature' ? Don Juan and Don Genaro were anything but mature.. lol
neither were they overly humble...
they were impeccable. nothing more, nothing less.

I think this may just be a matter of semantics. I realize each time that I say the word "childish" and "mature" that they may be taken the wrong way. Maybe I should find better terms to express what I'm meaning. I think it's the ultimate accomplishment to be completely child-like and yet completely mature and refined. Yes, impeccable.

Children watch a movie then run around pretending to be the person in the movie, a superhero or whatever. But I feel that there's a time when a child realizes that they don't have to pretend. They can be the superhero. But they have to take actions to reach the superhero level. And that's when maturity begins. By maturity I don't mean being a stuffy, serious older person, but a warrior who lives the fantasy rather than just fantasizing in their heads.

But I do like your suggestion of replacing the word maturity with impeccability. It is much more appropriate.

We're hardly being impeccable squabbling over mere words or ideas...
What I'm proposing here is that we help anyone and everyone no matter how stupid we may think it is... theres nothing really to lose.

I agree, but at the same time would like not to shy away from little squabbles, or dissagreement as they occur. In other words, I for a long time was for the most part, very non-confrontational. But the main reason for that was timidity on my part. I think it takes impeccability to be able to critize and take critisism gracefully. I certainly am not always the most graceful, but for me I believe it is part of a process of becoming more refined and impeccable to be able to go through this.

So please feel free to tell me if you ever feel that I am wrong, or what in particular you feel my abberations may be. I would love to hear the views of others. Gracias!

[amos]

Hello Enso�±ar;

First, please forgive my intrusion, and thanks for being present here and letting me find this beautiful place.
I've spent a few hour here today and tremendously enjoyed the wisdom and honesty i found.
I stopped reading just before the last two. I think that your last posting demonstrates the reason for Secrecy, the title of this thread. I know how much energy i waste when i try to explain/defend myself (my actions and ideas). Most of the time it's futile and only serves the remnants of my self importance. I'm not exactly right, because as much as i cannot care less what other people think about me, when i communicate with my daughters, i will do whatever it takes to make sure they understand my message. Ans this is probably what you feel and do when you defend/explain your thoughts here. Still, it takes a lot of energy which get lost. When you have secrecy (isolation) you don't have to waste energy explaining to every stupid 'policeman' and or the 'average normal man'. Wow, that was long; i should have remembered Lao-tse's "those who talk don't know, and those who know don't talk"...

Now i have an important question (for me) to ask you: i remember when reading one of your posts, you mentioned a brief encounter with kung-fu. I am just beginning to learn the Magical Passes (from the book and also the DVD), and read there that Juan Matus recommended Marshall art, and that one of the ladies in his group (or earlier) traveled to the East to study it. I have always been fascinated with marshal art (mostly the discipline and spiritual part of it); do you think that the Magical Passes can substitute entirely kung-fu, Tai-chi-chuan etc? I hope it is, and want your opinion.

amos.

[ensonar]

Hi Amos, nice to meet you

First of all I don't mind explaining myself in this context. I'm not defending anything. I'm only exchanging ideas with others here who have similar interests. And I would very much like to hear others' ideas. After all, that's basically why this forum exists.

On the other hand, about secrecy. I believe there is a possibility that one of the main reasons for secrecy, and erasing personal history is to remove attachment from ideas that are like meaningless cells imprisoning us. And I believe the outcome of fully erasing personal history is freedom.

I feel that we can reach a point when we realize that nothing matters. A point where no one can touch you, even in a sea of people. A point where explanations are as meaningless as everything else and so whatever we do is truly... controlled folly.

To answer your other question, I'm going to quote you in the Tensegrity forum (for organization's sake)

[Lilac]

I know how much energy i waste when i  try to explain/defend myself (my actions and ideas). Most of the time it's futile and only  serves the remnants of my self importance.

This is really important issue to me, because time and time again I have banged my head against the wall in all this explaining/defending theme. After all the occasions I have defended my ego in war of words I have always felt myself stupid and rotten human being after the war is over. I have always wondered how on Earth all silly things start to be so damn important. I guess mind can't tell the difference of words and action. If somebody comes to you and tries to murder you, then it's ok to defend yourself to the bitter end, but if all that comes to you are mere words, then what is so particularly important in words that one can come so annoyed...?

I can't go on living hating people, hating myself... Mostly nagualism to me is about behaviour. I don't know for sure wether there is "freedom", but do I really have to be this idiot I am? Of course I will always be an idiot, but I want to learn to not take it so seriously.

:lol:

[amos]

Hey Lilac;
U'r very sweet and very warrior; part of your sweetness (and stupidity) is that you don't want, maybe afraid to admit how smart you are, and you are!
I don't know how old you are, but warriorship is basically getting rid of the junk that 'they' have put in our head from the moment we get our mother's nipple in our mouth. As Juan Matus said, the spirit starts receding then. Very soon we cannot distinguish between nutrishes mother milk and white snake oil. Even if you are older than me i don't think you have to unlearn as much as i have being raised in a very brainwashing and conditioning society. It took me a very long time to find the truth you mentioned. You are so right; first they 'teach' us what is 'good and bad' and then, after believing them we become slaves and are controlled by being told that we are 'good', "a little nicer than her", "made a big mistake", "did a good job", "only 89% smart", "total 17% stupid". "a traitor". "a terrorist" etc etc. Look how a guy that calls himself the pope, was able to create so much wasted energy in the hearts of so many from the 'other' group, only of what he said about their pope (or something)...

I'm so happy that you've realized, but for me, it was only the beginning of a very very hard and long road to really feel and live it. It is not easy to forget your mother tongue and this is exactly the same. Let me give you one of my examples. It took me some time, but i realized the stupidity of my former profession (airline pilot) and how pilots are engaged so much in self glorifying. I used at that point, when not on duty, to take off my tie and jacket and pretend i was a 'regular' person; BUT, i carried the jacket on my arms and made sure that the sleeve with the four golden stripes of a captain, will be visible...
We built the prison in our heads with a very tall and thick walls. Even worse is who we put as a warden, the most effective and meanest - our ego.
You see, i got this stupid habit of talking and talking and talking, it's worse than having sex, i cannot stop or control it; but, i'm getting better and better, and i think the main reason for getting better, is by not worrying about it, who cares.
You'll see, as u said, the more you'll diminish your ego the stronger you'll feel; no body can hurt you; let them talk, they talk in a very stupid language which is not yours anymore; you cannot and don't want to understand it anymore.
How is Finland in the winter?

[Lilac]

Tee hee... It's quite easy to be smart and still not be wise... Wise people act as they preach, I only put words together and look I'm a guru...

For some time now I have wondered what is this strong urge in me to be Somebody. When I really start to think that it doesn't matter what people think and say about me and what they say right at to my face, there's always this strange thing: "but I have to make them sure that I'm special, able, smart, a good writer... what ever..." If I just try to think THE HELL WITH THEM ALL, I always start to feel a kind of fear of death. I can't really explane it! My reason tells me that amongst all these billions of people I can't possible have any meaning as a human being or as a living being, and still... Still there's that ego whining about BE THIS BE THAT DON'T LET ME DIE.

Yes, it's a nightmare.

***

Luckily it's not winter yet... I live in southern Finland and there are still green and yellow leaves in trees. Beautifull.

When I was child the temperature at winter could be as low or lower as -20 degrees of Celcius, but it seems winters are getting warmer and warmer over the years. Global warming I guess.

[amos]

Hey Lilac, don't drive me crazy. And as our friend Juan told carlos, "you have no right and no time to be impatient!".

You cannot forget in just a few years what you were taught, conditioned, brainwashed for so many years. For me, one of the most important things with those Mexican guys is their honesty and stories of many how long years it took each one of them to drop the distorted 'human form'.
You can count on 'them', the 'normal' people (in cooperation with your ego and old habits) not to let you leave slavery so easily. Ideally you take a break from the normal/average world, and return only when you are strong enough, but it ain't easy and cheap amymore. I don't listen to the radio, i have no TV, but it's hard here in the New York metro area to cut the noise. Every half an hour i have to listen to the church bells coming through my windows etc etc.
I though i got strong enough, but yesterday i sneaked (again) to see the news on the Internet. I read about something very stupid in Israel and i wasted a few hours thinking about it and about what to write on line as my response. I was strong enough this morning to to even go back to that online news.
It's a constant war with your ego and old habits, learn how to trick your ego and also require new habits so it will be easier to forget the old ones. But as long as you're aware of it and ask yourself as often as you can "what am i really doing now, and for what/whom?", then your freedom is guaranteed (it may take a few years, though)