[true]

Death is not an event that exists in some future.
Death is a warrior's constant companion.
Death is Carlos taking notes.
That may sound poetic, but it's a fact that happens to sound poetic.

It isn't Life then Death.
It's Life/Death - an inseperable pair.
Life springs from its source: Death.
Death springs from its source: Life.

Love it, hate it, respect it, fear it... it doesn't matter.
Nothing you do can change it, alter it, avoid it, or attract it.
It is all there is.
You can't exist outside of it in order to affect it in any way.

[true]

It's difficult to speak about anything without agreement on precise definitions. But to get to a point where two people understand eachother requires a lot of time and energy and desire. Here, we talk first and define later. What the hell - I want to say something about death, even though we probably have different definitions of what that means...

In my actual world, we are not beings who are going to die.
Anyone identified with their mind/inventory/thinking/ego is already dead.
We've been lied to.
We're taught that our world of the living exist between hell below and heaven above, but this world (1st att) is a dead hell, the second attention is the world of the living, and the third att might be called 'heaven'. Hell is actually preferable IMO to this world. At least hell is more honest, more direct - "you are being punished". Here, on so-called earth, people say 'I love you' while they punish you. In hell, a pitchfork in the ass is a pitchfork in the ass; on earth: "do you betray me with a kiss?". I've never been to prison, but I suspect there's no misrepresentation about whether you're getting f**ked in the ass or being made love to. Is prison where we hide our honest people? Are criminals defined by their willingness to do what they want even if there are laws and punishments against it? We can't have that kind of realness in a civilised/domesticated society, can we.

No, I'm not pro-crime. I'm pro-real.
I'm just saying, certain things are real and we're taught that they're not, or we're taught to avoid them, like death, pain, aloneness, emptiness...
Give me pills so I don't feel the pain.
Give me entertainment so I don't feel the emptiness.
Talk to me, (or I'll talk to myself), so I don't feel alone.
And define living as lungs breathing and heart beating, so I can believe I'm alive.
And let me live in a country that waves a banner of freedom and democracy so I won't feel my enslavement.

Vanity!
When I see that I'm in hell, there's something familiar about it.
It's the same feeling/awareness as death as an adviser.

[BratscheWarrior]

We are ALL beings that are on their way to dying. To deny this fact is to deny the existence of the energy body. We as warriors/wannabees accept this, living our lives accordingly.

But death is not fair. It is what it is. The taking away of awareness. It can happen at any time. What is even worse is taking the life of another sentient being. Why is it that most people say that it's ok to kill a man who has murdered another man by strapping him down to a table and injecting chemicals into him? Why is it that doing the same to a sick cat is called humane?

I'm a big Tolstoy fan. I like his views on death and dying. If you haven't, read the short story Master and Man. It's about 2 men, a wealthy business owner and his peasant. They travel from their home to the city and ultimately got lost in a horrible snowstorm at night. The peasant makes the best of the situation by lying still, trying to sleep. The businessman can only think of himself, his business and money. He thinks that he is an important man and what will become of the world without him? As he is about to die from exposure, he realizes that none of that matters. What matters is to be in the service of others like his peasant. He then covers the peasant with his body and dies. Since the peasant had his master covering him, he is saved.

I think i'll post some quotes from Anna Karenina later. Good stuff.

[BratscheWarrior]

From Anna Karenina:

Levin: "oh well, i never stop thinking about death. It's quite true that this is just a lot of nonsense. I will tell you frankly: I care a lot about my idea and my work, but, come to think of it, the whole thing, i mean, this whole world of ours is just a speck of mildew grown up on a tiny planet. And we think we can have something tremendous - ideas, actions! It's all a grain of sand."

Oblonsky: "But my dear fellow, this is as old as the hills."

Levin: "Old, yes, but, you know, once you grasp it clearly, everything becomes so insignificant. When you've grasped the fact that today or tomorrow you will die and nothing will be left of you, everything becomes so insignificant. I consider my idea very important, but, it to, turns out to be of now more significance, even if it were possible to carry it out, than walking around in this bearskin. And so you spend your life diverting yourself with hunting and work, just not to think of death."
......"And, you know, there is less charm in life when you think of death, but it's more peaceful."

[true]

I understand Castaneda's proposition. But to put death in the future tense is still a way we try to avoid the real, still escapism. As long as you're someone who is GOING to die, you still have life, you still have hope, you still have the opportunity to act like an ass, like an immortal, because death is not now, it's tomorrow. If you're already dead, there's no need to act like, or to imagine, or to have an adviser - you have the direct experience of death.

As minds, we are already dead. There is nothing in or of the mind that is not the past, the already dead. The mind cannot enter the world of the living, the second att. The second att is the absence of the mind.

If you're GOING to die, then you must be alive now - you must be in the second att. But you're not.

Those are my definitions from my experience. They may be different from yours. But they're based on direct experience and not second-hand knowledge. CC told us that we are beings that are going to die, or we look around and see people dying and INFER that we will one day die. This is second-hand, not direct. My direct experience says I am already dead because the 1st att uses dead mind/knowledge to perceive the world and oneself. The you who is "living" this 1st att is already dead and in hell, but you can call it life if you want to. Let's call rape 'love' while we're at it... Call whatever what you want. I'm saying to see this as hell and already dead offers more heightened awareness than to see that I am GOING to die.

[true]

Don't you see that it's a belief? That you are GOING to die HAS TO BE A BELIEF, because it's not NOW.

Do you prefer beliefs to the actual world?

[BratscheWarrior]

Ok, so let me ask you this. Do you really think that you won't be relinquishing your awareness someday? Or are you an immortal being?

Just because we are on this Path, doesn't mean we are supermen who will never die. Or do you want to live like the old sorcerers and turn into trees?

[ensonar]

It seems to me, true, as if maybe you're just getting caught up in words(?). I am absolutely positive that Carlos not only mentioned that we are beings who are going to die, but also to live as though we are already dead, that way we have nothing to cling to and nothing to lose.

[true]

Ok, so let me ask you this. Do you really think that you won't be relinquishing your awareness someday? Or are you an immortal being?

Just because we are on this Path, doesn't mean we are supermen who will never die. Or do you want to live like the old sorcerers and turn into trees?

I don't know. I'm aware now. Why should I BELIEVE that someday I won't be?
Am I immortal? Depends how you define "I" or "being".
Can being ever become non-being?

You see, we haven't defined enough to speak about this, to understand eachother.
Do you equate awareness with life?
You're jumping around... we haven't agreed whether "GOING to die" is a belief or not, so how can we keep talking?
I've stated that I'm already dead and you ask me if I'm immortal.
So we obviously have different definitions of death. Is it because I can type that you think I'm alive? My body's not in a grave somewhere....? Is death something that happens to the body, to awareness, to everything? Energy?

There's just too much to go into, so the simplest way to share here is to read carefully and without knowledge - open-minded.

I've given you my definitions in the first post. You're not accepting them. You're basically ignoring my post because of your knowledge. But if we go one step at a time, have I said anything untrue? Can you disprove that we as 1st att beings/awareness using the mind/inventory which is all known, all past, is not already dead? It's pretty obvious to me, but you are brushing over this.

I don't think, from what I've seen, that communication between you and I is possible. I say something and you're way far away somewhere else hearing something else. I've told you I'm already dead and you hear that I'm immortal and a superman??? This shows me you are listening with your knowledge instead of your ears (eyes).

I have no desire to be immortal. But maybe we already are. Time is an odd thing. I don't know that this moment isn't an eternity. It certainly feels like I can be present and it will spread into infinity and there will be no thought or awareness of time, no question of immortal or mortal. Immortal and mortal are thoughts/concerns of the mind. They don't exist when you drop the mind. So how can I say if I am mortal or immortal? How can I measure these things?

You see, they do not concern us directly. The concern of being immortal or mortal is second-hand. It only arises because of seperation from "this", "source", "presence"... nagual.

You cannot BE mortal or immortal. You can only BE this now, timeless.

I can't explain it any better.

[true]

It seems to me, true, as if maybe you're just getting caught up in words(?). I am absolutely positive that Carlos not only mentioned that we are beings who are going to die, but also to live as though we are already dead, that way we have nothing to cling to and nothing to lose.

Hey Ensonar. Nice to hear from you.

Maybe. But words are so important, and yet not important at all. They describe, pathetically, real things, intent.

"Going to" is an intent of the future, the not now.
"Act as if" means that you're not!
"Live as though" means you're not when you are reading intent.

They still imply seperation. The intent behind the words is important. By intent, I don't mean one's personal intent, not Carlos' intent behind his words, but the intent that shapes reality when the word is spoken, consciously or unconsciously - the intent of the word itself.

So can we not be seperate from death?

I guess death is just like immortal - they have no meaning when you leave the context of that world. Death is only a thought, a label.

I'm lost. I have no reference.
Silence again.


Thank you both for talking with me. Maybe I don't belong here... maybe I'm not CC oriented. I thought I was. Maybe I am. Maybe it has evolved beyond what I expected.

What concerns me is the actual world, the world that is when the mind is not. So if Castaneda's system fits that I'm fine. If it doesn't, I have to throw it out. I can't adhere to second-hand knowledge or I become a believer instead of a realist, a man of action. So for me all the teachings have to be inventoried in this way - can I directly experience/perceive that, or is it a belief. And i have to discard beliefs to find what I truly am, what is essential and true.